|
|
Post by Athkethin on Dec 8, 2015 12:36:50 GMT -7
This is a general question, in response to the other threads in this section. I'm all for limiting magic and reducing the blastability of PC casters, but a couple of threads suggest stuff like reduced lingering wounds and healing rates. What is the appeal of this kind of campaign, particularly to players?
In the S&S literature I've read (which is primarily Leiber's Lankhmar stories), the heroes sometimes end up at the brink of death and survive by the skin of their teeth, but there is nothing about how they lie in tatters for weeks/months recovering. It seems to be both not fun and counterproductive to make wounds more debilitating, whether by use of "lingering wounds" rules or just slowed healing.
The Spider God's Bride advocates the exact opposite of this method for a Sword & Sorcery style campaign, increasing the natural healing rate of characters to compensate for the reduced availability of magical healing opeions. In fairness for those who do not own and/or have not read that book, it also includes a massive damage rule that makes combat itself more lethal, and so maybe implementing the Massive Damage optional rule on page 173 of the DMG (which is, oddly, almost exactly the same as the one presented in TSGB) would solve the problem.
For those who suggest reduced healing rates and the like: do your players actually enjoy that approach? I am not criticizing such a play style; I started in 2e, played 3.x a lot, skipped 4e, and was very skeptical of the speed of natural healing in 5e when the playtest began. But it has been my observation in the time since that the healing rate keeps a campaign moving, and not getting held up while the heroes are recovering.
I guess that, of the options available for creating a "gritty" atmosphere, I don't feel that reducing healing is an appealing option, especially when used on top of reducing the availability of magic. I'm curious to hear others' experiences with this approach.
|
|
|
|
Post by egamma on Dec 8, 2015 18:16:52 GMT -7
I drive 45 minutes each way to my gaming group, as do most of my players. We don't drive that distance to play SimHospitalStay or SimParapalegic. One of my players is blind in one eye and is missing half a leg; I assure you, he doesn't want to replicate that in-game.
If you want "slow healing", then just have weeks or months of downtime in between game sessions.
|
|
|
|
Post by beastman on Dec 9, 2015 7:25:55 GMT -7
I've read a lot of the Conan comics, and I assume that the Comics are similar to the books in that any character who is not named Conan, dies in some horrible way whether being eaten by some giant monster or tortured to death by bad guys. Now I guess that is more so death than wounds, but it does paint a grittier picture of the setting when characters die in awful ways.
The first 5e game I ran was set in Japan, and I had an NPC who was named Tanji. Suffice to say, he dropped to 0 a few times and rolled successes (I typically roll death saves for my NPCs) until he died a horrible death, and I made it so the nukekubi they were fighting tore flesh from wherever they could bite such as his nose, eyes, cheeks and lips, making the once handsome Tanji look like a zombie. So I definitely use injuries on my NPCs, but I usually don't enforce injuries. I have players who like receiving injuries in game, and I have players who hate injuries. I generally find that injuries promote accurate roleplaying of characters.
That being said, 5e is better as an action simulator than replicating realism, which is why I don't enforce injuries. There are better systems for that (RuneQuest comes to mind).
On another note, you have really sparked my interest in the Spider-God's Bride with your past few posts. I looked it up and am a little disappointed that its for the Pathfinder rules. The system is fine, and I played it before 5e, but I have gotten so used to how quick character creation is in 5e without the imposing number of feats.
|
|
|
|
Post by Athkethin on Dec 9, 2015 14:44:19 GMT -7
I've read a lot of the Conan comics, and I assume that the Comics are similar to the books in that any character who is not named Conan, dies in some horrible way whether being eaten by some giant monster or tortured to death by bad guys. Now I guess that is more so death than wounds, but it does paint a grittier picture of the setting when characters die in awful ways. The first 5e game I ran was set in Japan, and I had an NPC who was named Tanji. Suffice to say, he dropped to 0 a few times and rolled successes (I typically roll death saves for my NPCs) until he died a horrible death, and I made it so the nukekubi they were fighting tore flesh from wherever they could bite such as his nose, eyes, cheeks and lips, making the once handsome Tanji look like a zombie. So I definitely use injuries on my NPCs, but I usually don't enforce injuries. I have players who like receiving injuries in game, and I have players who hate injuries. I generally find that injuries promote accurate roleplaying of characters. That being said, 5e is better as an action simulator than replicating realism, which is why I don't enforce injuries. There are better systems for that (RuneQuest comes to mind). On another note, you have really sparked my interest in the Spider-God's Bride with your past few posts. I looked it up and am a little disappointed that its for the Pathfinder rules. The system is fine, and I played it before 5e, but I have gotten so used to how quick character creation is in 5e without the imposing number of feats. is written for Pathinder, but the actual crunch content is pretty light. Since the setting is designed to emulate a low-magic Sword & Sorcery setting, it actually strips out most magical stuff from the sytem, and grossly reduces the available spells. I made a 5e conversion of the TSGB Sorcerer class, and it's posted on these forums somewhere. The book is more useful, in my opinion, for its suggestions on running a S&S setting and its setting. I call it well worth the $10 for the pdf. There is a free preview pdf on the Xoth.net site here, so you can get a taste of what I'm talking about. It includes some background info, as well as sections from a couple of the included adventures. The link takes you directly to the preview pdf. |
|
|
|
Post by Zoltan! on Dec 10, 2015 11:28:26 GMT -7
Athkethin...
A very good question. I think part of the answer, for me, is I'm trying to capture some of the lost "old school" feel. I really like 5e, but there are some aspects of the "good old days" that I miss. I am very fortunate to have a great group of players who are totally interested in immersing themselves in the atmosphere of the game & are extremely tolerant of trying new ideas!
Here's an example: I've run one of my 5e games for just over a year now. A few sessions ago, we experimented with healing only 1/2 max HP on a long rest & my players really liked it. They liked the feeling of being more vulnerable & having to be more cautious with their choices and resources. Maybe it's because that's not an overly combat-oriented game (although I figure that will be different in my Thule campaign). I will admit, right off, that I don't really attempt run a balanced game, or even balanced encounters. Sometimes, characters just need to hide or run away... My games are more of a sandbox with several intertwined storylines ongoing. I try not to direct my players to this dungeon or that; but try to be very flexible in allowing them freedom to do what they want.
To Egamma: Well put, & I can understand your point of view.
With that being said, before I start my actual Thule campaign, my group will play a couple of one-off sessions & test various grittiness rules (not just mine!). We'll figure out what heightens the "feel" for us, and what doesn't.
Bill W.
|
|
|
|
Post by Athkethin on Dec 13, 2015 2:56:57 GMT -7
Zoltan:
I figured your goal was recapturing the pre-WotC feel of the game; I started playing in '94 and the slightly faster healing rate of 3e I loved immediately, but the "heal completely every afternoon and evening too" nature of 5e seemed overboard. I am similarly unconcerned with "balance" - my first character was a giant bug with four usable arms (four attacks per round!), psionic powers, and a Strength of 20, and it was awesome. I feel that the 3-4e obsession with trying to balance characters against each other has been grossly detrimental to the game overall, and I'm glad that in 5th Edition WotC's stance on that front has relaxed a little bit. Different characters can be good at different things again.
In the course of running my 5e campaign, though, I've noticed that much of the stuff I thought I'd missed from earlier editions I really don't. The faster healing rate in 5e is so unrealistic it's not even funny, but it does allow for more heroic play. It also allows for less bookeeping, which the occasional 8-year-old in my group (son of my two most regular players) definitely appreciates. And similarly to Egamma's situation, the kid's father suffered a traumatic brain injury in the Middle East while serving in Army, when a landmine he was removing exploded in his face - he also has no interest in replicating his recovery in what is supposed to be escapist fantasy. Nor does his wife.
Obviously all groups are different. I don't mean to try and belittle you or yours for your preferences. There is real value in recreating the Gygaxian suspense and tension from years ago, and not everybody wants to feel like their character is Superman. For my part using old adventures does the trick and I don't feel any need to push it farther than that, but that's my game. It will be interesting to see how your Thule campaign plays out, and if their/your opinion shifts. I think that there is much to be said for adventures that are episodic even internally, where characters start refreshed for each part of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by egamma on Dec 13, 2015 8:40:51 GMT -7
I think that one of the best ways to think about the game is to think that "D&D humans are not real-world humans. They are from a different universe that has different rules. They heal fast because their world is filled with magic."
There's a great piece of crossover fanfic about Milo the 3.5 D&D wizard getting summoned into the world of Harry Potter, and it goes on and on about the differences between the magic rules and healing and even shenanigans with feather tokens and other magical items.
That said, there are plenty of ways to adjust the healing rate. I think the correct answer is somewhere between the punishing 1hp/day of 1e and the 100hp/day of 5e. Maybe let them heal one full hit die a night, and then roll their remaining hit die, like they do on level up.
|
|
|
|
Post by finieous on Jan 31, 2016 21:40:53 GMT -7
I'm late to this discussion, but just wanted to chime in that I've had a change of heart on this. I was mixing a little of my old-school with my sword-and-sorcery. A lot of it mixes just fine, but probably not as much on this issue. As I get closer to starting my campaign, I'm leaning way more heavily into genre emulation and the gritty, slow-healing stuff has been removed from my player's guide. You might get killed, but if you don't, I have no problem with you being ready to split skulls again in the next scene.
|
|
|
|
Post by egamma on Feb 1, 2016 19:00:32 GMT -7
There's no issue with having weeks or months between adventures; it gives you a chance to soak a bunch of money from your players for expenses, as an added bonus.
|
|
